美国内战前,南方黑奴待遇真的比同时期英国工人好?

前不久读到关于 William Fogel 的The Economics of American Negro Slavery 的书评,提到种植园主实行的是家长式温情的管理,黑奴人均肉类摄入高于1964年的水平。那应该比英国工厂里的工人好不少吧?

“sunbo231禁言”回复:地主家的大牲口自然比长工照顾得好。

“sumii”回复:不是自己的东西自然不知道珍惜。社会主义的厂长和资本家哪个对工厂更爱惜?奴隶比同时期自由民生活水平高有什么奇怪,只是自由民至少还有选择的机会。

“春秋笔法”回复:这书是70年代的书了,很多数据都是估算的,而且采样时间是一个棉花市场繁荣期。
PS:顺便说一下,作者其实是想挑战黑人低人一等的传统观念。

“tejat”回复:桑巴特的美国为什么没有社会主义书里说过一个段子,一爱尔兰人写家信说美国这里好极了,我每礼拜都可以吃到肉。雇主奇怪道,你丫不是每天吃肉么。爱尔兰回,我这么说家乡的人根本不会信。

“铅封列车司机”回复:請問现在学界的研究成果怎么样,有什么修正啊?

不是应该问南方奴隶主和北方资本家哪个更敲骨吸髓么?

“gameboy”回复:真不用问,北美中部大平原的存在导致美国工人的工资高起,连恩格斯都在高呼美国例外——你要真觉得不想伺候资本家了,去中部大平原种地就行,只要10美元,就能在中部平原拿到160英亩合960亩耕地。北方资本家想敲骨吸髓也只能去吸连10美元都拿不出来的华工、爱尔兰人和解放黑奴——所以北方吵吵要废奴,那是真缺人。
美国阶级矛盾激化要到1880年代末中部平原开发完毕,美国历史上对此有个专有名词“大陆封闭”。

“sumii”回复:有人考证黑奴解放之后生活水平下降是普遍存在。大量黑人涌入大城市 因为缺乏生产资料只能从事低端劳动 直到现在美国多数大城市黑人都占相当比例,当时美国法律对劳动者权益保护非常有限,资本家各种花样剥削劳工,敢反抗有平克顿公司的侦探和雇佣的私兵帮助镇压。

“春秋笔法”回复:https://economy.guoxue.com/?p=3252,修正也不是现在的事了,这事过气已经好几十年了。

“Lsquirrel”回复:吃的肉多就是生活好?连人都不算,扯什么生活待遇。

“铅封列车司机”回复:在道德立场上批判没有问题,但是探究历史上其物质生活条件也是有必要的。再说作者也不是为奴隶制唱赞歌,只是批判后来资本家更残酷。

“春秋笔法”回复:不对,作者对比的是同时代的资本家。另外他的总剥削率的算法被认为有问题。

“铅封列车司机”回复:多谢,我也觉得疑惑的就是他说黑奴当时能保有其产出的九成。。。觉得不可思议。

问个题外,当时黑奴和解放前的长工待遇相比如何?

“Lsquirrel”回复:如果事后分析结论和事情发生时的大众普遍印象相反,那么十之八九这个分析是错的,无论使用的方法表面上看起来多么科学多么合理
那些数据产生时都不可能可靠,更别说一百年后故纸堆里有倾向的研究了。
举个简单的例子:

“他们测算出南北战争以前南方奴隶的平均生产率大约比自由劳动者高70%。
在奴隶的一生中,他所生产的90%归自己所有。奴隶的生活条件同自由劳动者相比是好的。”

按照书中这两处结论,奴隶比自由民收入高至少50%(生产率170:100,收入比例假设为对自由民最有利的90:100)
既然如此,美国还干嘛废除契约白奴呢,要知道这可是白奴们反复抗争甚至多次起义的结果。
如果这么推导下去,岂不是可以推出一个非常奇特和种族主义的结论:白人智力低下,不懂得如何追求获得更好的生活。黑人大智若愚,乐做奴隶享受生活?

“春秋笔法”回复:当时是指采样的棉花繁荣十年吗?那应该是黑奴物质待遇更好一点。

“09071139zzy”回复:这个题目有点问题,就是没有很准确的说明时代。虽然楼主你说了内战前双方待遇的对比,但是就我所知,内战前至少黑人奴隶的身份转变光从17世纪的契约奴转化为之后的种植园奴隶就花了不少时间。早期的南方还有大规模使用白人契约奴的时间段呢!
在南部黑人待遇上,怎么说呢,南方我记得是马里兰还是哪里的州法对主奴双方的关系有个定义。一,奴隶要服从主人,二,主人要尽可能的保障奴隶的生活。也就是说,种植园主对于黑奴可以用一手拿鞭子,一手拿糖来看待。对黑人的体罚和大规模的劳作是一方面,但同时,也帮助其组建家庭,进行宗教活动。
当然,对于这些,我觉得都是建立在奴隶本身是奴隶主的财产下。毕竟一个18岁的健康黑人奴隶的利润光其本身就有近80美元呢。

“蒋公顾问崔可夫”回复:1864年,联邦军队攻占了田纳西州的一处种植园并释放了园中的黑奴。这其中有一位乔顿.安德森。之后他不顾原主人的愤怒与威胁,立刻离开了种植园。1965年南北战争结束后乔顿携妻子儿女在俄亥俄州的代顿市定居。当年7月,乔顿意外地收到了旧日奴隶主的来信。不识字的他请一位朋友瓦伦汀.温特斯律师念诵了这封信,原来他出身的种植园如今因为无人耕作而债务缠身,他的旧主人情急之下联系了他认识的唯一一位既有农业技术,又有可能说服其他解放黑奴回来干活的人。几天后,深思熟虑的乔顿向温特斯口述了自己的回信。

******

Dayton, Ohio,

代顿市,俄亥俄州

August 7, 1865

1865年8月7日

To My Old Master, Colonel P.H. Anderson, Big Spring, Tennessee

致我旧日的主人,P.H.安德森上校,大泉市,田纳西

Sir: I got your letter, and was glad to find that you had not forgotten Jourdon, and that you wanted me to come back and live with you again, promising to do better for me than anybody else can. I have often felt uneasy about you. I thought the Yankees would have hung you long before this, for harboring Rebs they found at your house. I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin's to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable. Although you shot at me twice before I left you, I did not want to hear of your being hurt, and am glad you are still living. It would do me good to go back to the dear old home again, and see Miss Mary and Miss Martha and Allen, Esther, Green, and Lee. Give my love to them all, and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this. I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville Hospital, but one of the nei**ors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance.

先生:来信已收到。我很欣慰您还没忘了乔顿,还想让我搬回去和您一起生活,还许诺要比其他人更好地对待我。我一直对您放心不下。我原以为北方佬很久以前就因为您在自家私藏叛军而把您绞死了呢。当时您听说联邦军在马丁上校家的马棚里留下了一名伤员,于是就专程赶过去把人家杀了。依我的愚见,这件事情北方佬大概也从没听说过吧?尽管您在我离开之前朝我开了两枪,但是我依然不愿听到您出事的消息,您还没死我真是太高兴了。我也很想回到亲爱的老家看一看,再次见到玛丽小姐、玛莎小姐、艾伦、艾斯特、格林与李。请代我向他们问好。如果这辈子无缘再见,我很希望能在天堂里见到他们。我在纳什维尔医院工作的时候原本打算回去看您的,不过一位邻居告诉我亨利只要一见到我就会开枪打我。

I want to know particularly what the good chance is you propose to give me. I am doing tolerably well here. I get twenty-five dollars a month, with victuals and clothing; have a comfortable home for Mandy,—the folks call her Mrs. Anderson,—and the children—Milly, Jane, and Grundy—go to school and are learning well. The teacher says Grundy has a head for a preacher. They go to Sunday school, and Mandy and me attend church regularly. We are kindly treated. Sometimes we overhear others saying, "Them colored people were slaves" down in Tennessee. The children feel hurt when they hear such remarks; but I tell them it was no disgrace in Tennessee to belong to Colonel Anderson. Many darkeys would have been proud, as I used to be, to call you master.

我很想知道这一次您愿意为我提供怎样优厚的工作机会。我在这里混得还行。我一个月能赚二十五美元,雇主还提供了免费三餐与衣物。曼迪终于有了一个舒适的家——当地人都尊称她安德森夫人。孩子们——米莉、简与格兰迪——在学校里都表现不错。老师还告诉我格兰迪脑子很灵,将来兴许能当牧师呢。这里的人们都很厚待我们。有时我们去田纳西州也能听到别人说闲话:“那帮黑人从前都是奴隶。”孩子们听到这种话都很难受,我就告诉他们,在田纳西州为安德森上校家当奴隶没什么好丢人的。好些黑皮要是能成为您家的奴隶都会感到高人一等,我以前也是这么想的。

Now if you will write and say what wages you will give me, I will be better able to decide whether it would be to my advantage to move back again. As to my freedom, which you say I can have, there is nothing to be gained on that score, as I got my free papers in 1864 from the Provost-Marshal-General of the Department of Nashville. Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us justly and kindly; and we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores, and rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for thirty-two years, and Mandy twenty years. At twenty-five dollars a month for me, and two dollars a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to eleven thousand six hundred and eighty dollars. Add to this the interest for the time our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing, and three doctor's visits to me, and pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to. Please send the money by Adams's Express, in care of V. Winters, Esq., Dayton, Ohio.

您要是愿意在回信中讲清楚您打算付我多少工资,那我就能更好地决定搬回去对我有没有好处了。至于我的自由——您说这次我有自由——这方面已经没有什么可供提高的余地了。因为我在1864年就从纳什维尔的宪兵总司令手里拿到了自由文书。曼迪说要是没有证据表明您真心打算善待我们,她就不敢回去。我们两个商议之后决定考验一下您的诚意:请您将我们在您家干活这些年来的应得工资寄给我们。 只要您把钱寄来,咱们之间的旧账就算一笔勾销了。从今往后我们将会十分乐意地仰赖您的正直与友谊。我为您忠诚服务了三十二年,曼迪为您服务了二十年。根据我目前月薪二十五美元的收入水平,以及曼迪每周两美元的水平,这些年来我们两个的应得工资是一万一千六百八十美元。加上这笔钱这些年来衍生的利息,减去您为我们购买衣物的费用,为我安排三次医生登门问诊的费用,以及为曼迪拔掉一颗蛀牙的费用,最终的额度就是我们理应获得的款项。请通过亚当斯特快将钱款送来,转交给俄亥俄州代顿市的V.温特斯律师即可。

If you fail to pay us for faithful labors in the past, we can have little faith in your promises in the future. We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers, in making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night; but in Tennessee there was never any pay-day for the negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.

假如您不能为我们过去的忠诚服务付钱,我们也无法相信您关于未来的许诺。我们相信,造物主已经擦亮了您的双眼,让您看清了您与您的父辈对于我与我的父辈所施加的各种不义之举。我们为您们世代辛劳,却一无所获。如今我每周六晚上都能领取薪水,但是在田纳西黑人就像牛马一样全无发薪日可言。对于那些欺诈雇工的人们来说,算总账的日子早晚都会到的。

In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Milly and Jane, who are now grown up, and both good-looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve—and die, if it come to that—than have my girls brought to shame by the violence and wickedness of their young masters. You will also please state if there has been any schools opened for the colored children in your nei**orhood. The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education, and have them form virtuous habits.

在回信当中烦请您注明米莉与简能否得到安全对待。她们都已经长成漂亮的大姑娘了。您应该还记得可怜的玛蒂尔达与凯瑟琳遭遇了什么。我宁肯待在这里挨饿——以至于饿死——也不愿看到我的女儿在小少爷们手中遭受羞辱与摧残。此外还希望您能注明您家附近有没有面向黑人儿童的学校。我平生最大的心愿就是让我的子女接受教育,养成品德高尚的习惯。

Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me.

最后请代我向乔治.卡特先生致谢,多谢他在当初您开枪打我的时候抢下了手*枪。

From your old servant,

您曾经的仆役,

Jourdon Anderson.

乔顿.安德森。

******

温特斯为这封信添加了一个非正式标题,《一位自由人写给旧日主人的信》,并且在当地报纸上公开发表,随即传遍了全国乃至欧洲部分地区。他的旧主人亨利的种植园在回信当年颗粒无收,只得低价出售。几年之后,四十四岁的亨利死于赤贫。乔顿.安德森再也没有返回田纳西州大泉市。他于1907年去世,享年八十一岁,身后留下了十一名子女。

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本文作者:铅封列车司机